Discussion Pro/Con Statin Cholesterol Lowering Drugs

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godsilove

Discussion Pro/Con Statin Cholesterol Lowering Drugs

Post by godsilove » Wed Feb 25, 2009 6:01 pm

Editor - this was split from the opthamologist post

kath wrote:Don Harry,

I did not know about the Lp(a) connection to statins.
My cholesterol dropped from 226 to 147 and triglycerides from 134 to 64 while taking Lipitor.
It has been a difficult decision to stop taking a drug that gives such impressive results. After countless hours researching statins especially pertaining to how ineffective they are on women I decide to stop taking Lipitor without my doctors consent. I don't understand why doctors keep using statins as the only line of defense for CVD.

Thank you for that added information along with the books you have recommended.

Have you ever heard of the Pritikin Diet by Robert Pritikin? It's a weight loss book but also used to help stop or possibly reverse atherosclerosis.


Kath, if the Lipitor has lowered your cholesterol, then it is "working", since that is partly what it is meant to do. The obvious question is whether lowering your cholesterol will translate into a lower risk of CVD. The "cholesterol skeptics" claim that lowering cholesterol is of no benefit - however, the evidence indicates that it does - at least in certain groups of people depending on their risk factors.

If you doubt that high cholesterol increases one's risk of CVD, one only has to look at people who have a genetic disorder known as familial hypercholesteremia and are known to have a higher incidence of heart disease. Furthermore, the use of statins has been shown to reduce this risk and reduce the incidence of cardiovascular events in these patients.

For people who do not have familial hypercholesteremia, the evidence of benefit for statins is strongest for middle-aged men who are already at high risk. Women have often been underrepresented in clinical trials of statins, and may benefit less than men; however, meta-analyses do show a benefit in women at high risk.

I don't know where you stand in terms of risk factors - but I think this is something you should discuss with your doctor. Ultimately, it is your choice as to whether the benefit outweighs the monetary costs as well as the possible risks. For instance, in one study (ASCOT-LLA), 100 people had to be treated for 3 years with Lipitor to avoid one heart attack. This is just to illustrate - the population in that study might not be relevant to your particular circumstance. What is your treatment goal? When you read about statins being ineffective in women, what exactly is it ineffective at doing - reducing cholesterol, reducing mortality, reducing heart attacks, reducing vision loss, or a combination of these? I think you should talk to your doctor about what the goals of therapy are, and if they are evidence-based.

Ultimately, high LDL cholesterol is just one risk factor for atherosclerosis. I personally think that lowering your cholesterol will benefit you, but I don't know by how much and whether the benefit justifies the price of Lipitor. I also think that a multipronged approach is important. If your blood pressure is high, you might want to look into lifestyle modifications that may mitigate this risk factor. Another important lifestyle modification that is often difficult to implement is regular exercise - but even daily 20-30 minute walks can help lower your CVD risk (speak to your doctor first though). You might also want to look into supplementing with folic acid, vitamin B6 and B12, especially if your homocysteine levels are high. Also make sure you are eating a healthy diet with lots of fruits and vegetables. There is some evidence that dietary fiber may slow the progression of atherosclerosis.

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Re: Ophthalmologist says I have blocked vessels behind my eye

Post by Cis4me » Thu Feb 26, 2009 6:28 am

It is looking more and more to me like statin drugs are essentially an overpriced, more toxic form of some vitamin D knock-off and most of the (small) effect comes from it being a weak anti-inflamatory drug. Why not just stick with the real thing :) I wonder if "medicine" has made the classic mistake of confusing coorelation with causation. If you are shooting for lower numbers in lab tests, ascorbate and niacin will do a nice job as well, much more cheaply and are less dangerous.

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Re: Ophthalmologist says I have blocked vessels behind my eye

Post by ofonorow » Thu Feb 26, 2009 8:33 am

Owen R. Fonorow
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American Scientist's Invention Could Prevent 350,000 Heart Bypass Operations a year

godsilove

Re: Ophthalmologist says I have blocked vessels behind my eye

Post by godsilove » Sat Feb 28, 2009 7:58 pm


ofonorow
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Re: Discussion Pro/Con Statin Cholesterol Lowering Drugs

Post by ofonorow » Sun Mar 01, 2009 8:14 am

Working backwards, I think I'll reply to one issue at a time.
Do you also have any references to studies showing that cholesterol drugs increase Lp(a) levels?


The reference is the required warning in the Canadian version of the New England Journal of Medicine, see the yellow hilighted portions of http://naturesperfectstatin.com/canada.htm
(These pages were sent to us from an interested party in Canada) If I remember correctly,
you mentioned godsilove that you are from Canada. Would you be so kind as to verify these warnings in your medical journal advertisements? This advice, required by Canadian medical authorities is based upon many studies you can find in MEDLINE.

I decided to split the rest into separate topics so we can focus on each issue.
Owen R. Fonorow
HeartCURE.Info
American Scientist's Invention Could Prevent 350,000 Heart Bypass Operations a year

godsilove

Re: Discussion Pro/Con Statin Cholesterol Lowering Drugs

Post by godsilove » Sun Mar 01, 2009 12:37 pm

ofonorow wrote:Working backwards, I think I'll reply to one issue at a time.
Do you also have any references to studies showing that cholesterol drugs increase Lp(a) levels?


The reference is the required warning in the Canadian version of the New England Journal of Medicine, see the yellow hilighted portions of http://naturesperfectstatin.com/canada.htm


Thanks for that - I notice it says that Lp(a) may be increased "in some patients".

It would interesting to see in what proportion of patients Lp(a) levels are increased. If Lp(a) is increased in 10% of patients, would you still recommend that people stop taking statins?

Perhaps it would be better for people starting statin therapy to have their Lp(a) levels tested prior to starting treatment, and after as well. Unfortunately, the monograph does not cite any references showing the increase in Lp(a) levels, only a paper suggesting that it is a risk factor.

(These pages were sent to us from an interested party in Canada) If I remember correctly,
you mentioned godsilove that you are from Canada. Would you be so kind as to verify these warnings in your medical journal advertisements? This advice, required by Canadian medical authorities is based upon many studies you can find in MEDLINE.

I decided to split the rest into separate topics so we can focus on each issue.


I don't read print versions of any journals, as most are accessible online. However, it is a standard requirement for ALL drugs to have potential side effects listed in the product monograph. The same holds true for US versions, as far as I am aware.

The information in the product monograph indicates that 1% of patients taking Lipitor experienced myalgia. So understandably, doctors are told to monitor patients if they develop muscle pain or weakness. It also includes a warning about rhabdomyolysis, even though it is extremely rare. The risk of rhabdomyolysis is higher in patients taking cerivastatin (Baycol - which is now no longer marketed, I believe) - about 46 cases in every 100,000 people who take the drug (<0.0005%). The risk with other statin drugs is even lower - around 3 reported cases in every 100,000 people.

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Re: Discussion Pro/Con Statin Cholesterol Lowering Drugs

Post by Frank » Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:15 pm

This is a question for those who believe that the unified theory is correct.

Statin drugs reduce cholesterol. I don't think anybody disagrees with that. Without vitamin c supplementation and lowered cholesterol with statin drugs, how do the blood vessels get repaired?

Thanks

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Re: Discussion Pro/Con Statin Cholesterol Lowering Drugs

Post by ofonorow » Wed Mar 04, 2009 9:10 am

Frank, exactly. That is why I am surprised that these statin studies are able to show any benefit for even a limited period of time. And that is why I suspect the five-year delay in publication is at least a red-flag, and maybe evidence of malfeasance.
Owen R. Fonorow
HeartCURE.Info
American Scientist's Invention Could Prevent 350,000 Heart Bypass Operations a year


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