Still Has Angina After Angioplasty/Stent - Pakistan

The discussion of the Linus Pauling vitamin C/lysine invention for chronic scurvy

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Still Has Angina After Angioplasty/Stent - Pakistan

Post Number:#1  Post by ofonorow » Mon Aug 18, 2008 1:14 pm

Hello Owen,

This is .... I called up the vitamin c foundation and got your email from there.

My father was having chest pains for a very long period of time. He finally got his angiogram done in January and found out that 1 artery is 100% blocked and 2 others are 90% blocked.The cardiologist recommended him a bypass to completely fix him problem. However, he didn't go for it and had angioplasty done on the 2 90% blocked arteries instead. The cardiologist used 2 medicated stents.However, even though he feels better he still complains of chest pain and can not walk for even short distances. He is on a number of medicines and has no energy at all. He is getting weaker everyday. His diet is not good either. The cardiologist just told him to eat normal. I think it was pathertic advice as normal will be different for everyone.

The cardiologist also wants him to get another angiogram done.

Anyway, your site has given a lot of hope to us. I would like you to let me know which medicines he should discontinue right away. And what vitamins he should start taking. Also the dietry changes he should make.

His current medicines are:

Plavix 0+0+1
Ascard 0+0+1
Tenormin 1+0+0
Lipiget 0+0+1
Elantan Long 1+0+0
Risik 1+0+1

If you offer personal consultation kindly let me know the charges I will be more than happy to pay.

I am really worried about my father. I'm sure you know what we are going through..If you require further information kindly let me know.I can send you his reports and his angiogram cds as well.

Kind Reagards
Z.


Since you are in Pakistan, maybe I can give advice without going to
jail?

Seriously, most of what you want is in the book, Practicing Medicine Without A License http://www.practicingmedicinewithoutalicense.com
and if you click on the Excerpt link - you can get a PDF file of chapter 7 - which contains the entire protocol that I recommend.

I would advise your father to immediately begin taking vitamin C and lysine, assuming these supplements are available in Pakistan - are they?? Start with one 500 mg tablet of each - every 4 hours. After a day or 2, if he can tolerate that, then increase by 1 additional tablet, to 2 tablets of each (1000 mg) every 4 hours, maybe more just before bed. Then if he doesn't have gas/diarrhea, increase to 3 of each (1500 mg) every 4 hours until he reaches his tolerance, then reduce by one pill daily.

More on bowel tolerance at http://www.orthomed.com/titrate.htm

His pain will end after he reaches the correct dosages for him. Diet isn't really that important. We can deal with that later.

The drugs are another matter. There are many lawsuits now in the USA because Plavix has failed several trials and it can cause heart attack, and stopping it can cause a heart attack.

If you father is at his vitamin C tolerance before he starts to wean from the Plavix, his chances are much better. The other drugs probably aren't much better, and they are mostly for people in the usuall "vitamin C starved" state. Most aren't needed as the vitamin C levels increase - and heed Pauling's advice, do not stop the vitamin C even for a single day.

Now another huge problem causing weekness is the Lipitor - drains the body of CoQ10. He can start weaning that right away, first cut pill in half, then take less daily, then every other day. You need to get him Coenzyme Q10, maybe from lef.org, if not available in Pakistan. He must have at least 150 mg, but 300 or more mg daily will give him his energy back.

Opps I misread. No lipitor - but if one is a cholesterol-lowering drug, and there invariably is one, the advice remains the same as Lipitor.

More here in the future. Owen
Owen R. Fonorow
HeartCURE.Info
American Scientist's Invention Could Prevent 350,000 Heart Bypass Operations a year

zeeeeeee

Re: Still Has Angina After Angioplasty/Stent - Pakistan

Post Number:#2  Post by zeeeeeee » Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:34 am

Hello Owen, I really appreciate that you took time to reply to my email.

I have managed to get a hold of all 3 supplements. Following is the list of other ingredients in them.

Vitamin C(GNC) 500g: ascorbic acid 500 mg, cellulose.dicalcium phosphate,,Rose hips,vegetable aceteglycerides

CoQ-10 (GNC) 200 g. Soy bean oil, Gelatin, Glycerin, chlorophyll, titanium dioxide.

L-Lysine(GNC) 500g::L-Lysine Monohydrochloride, cellulose.

I hope you don’t see any problem with any of them.

For the dosage of vitmain c and lysine, my father will up them daily. But once he reaches 6 g of lysine/day he will stop its increment while he will continue to increase vitamin c dosage untill he reaches his maximum limit. Do I have this correct?

I want to talk to you about the other stuff too, such as fish oil and vitamin k2 as the cardiologist said that his blocked artery is very hard. But I will hold that back for a while. Lets see how he does with your current recommendation. Meanwhile I will also order your book which will make me understand things better.

With regard to Plavix, he has just been taking in for 4-5 months, due you still think he shouldn.t discontinue it right away?

Thanks
Zee

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Re: Still Has Angina After Angioplasty/Stent - Pakistan

Post Number:#3  Post by ofonorow » Thu Aug 21, 2008 7:23 am

Tough question about Plavix. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. You should definitely bring the lawsuit information to his doctor, let him read it and let the doctor decide what should be done re: Plavix. These problems with Plavix are usually news to cardiologists. (I hope they don't put him on coumadin instead. Sigh)

You seem to have correctly understood the protocol, but there seems to be a lot of "junk" in that vitamin C tablet. Won't be harmful, or shouldn't be, but next time see if you can find an ascorbic acid tablet which is as clean as the lysine tablet you mentioned.

The trick taking CoQ10 is to take it with fats, say cheese. You need bile for CoQ10 to be absorbed.

Won't hurt to add vitamin K - mgs of K1, or micrograms of K2, as this will greatly assist the process of reversing hard calcified plaques.

Ditto good natural Omega 3/6s. Reminds that one reason these are so important has to do with cell membrane permeability to sugar/vitamin C. So make sure he is not taking ANY unnatural fats, e.g. foods that contain trans fats. He should also try to reduce his sugar intake, especially around the times he takes the vitamin C. Remember, high glycemic carbohydrates rapidly break down into sugars. He should focus on eating proteins, natural fats and low glycemic-index carbohydrates.

Makes sense to take the CoQ10, Omega Oils and vitamin K at the same time, with a meal containing fats.

Finally, can you find a chelated magnesium supplement? There are few nutrients outside of vitamin C that more important than magnesium for heart patients.
Owen R. Fonorow
HeartCURE.Info
American Scientist's Invention Could Prevent 350,000 Heart Bypass Operations a year

zeeeeeee

Re: Still Has Angina After Angioplasty/Stent - Pakistan

Post Number:#4  Post by zeeeeeee » Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:55 am

ofonorow wrote:Tough question about Plavix. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. You should definitely bring the lawsuit information to his doctor, let him read it and let the doctor decide what should be done re: Plavix. These problems with Plavix are usually news to cardiologists. (I hope they don't put him on coumadin instead. Sigh)

You seem to have correctly understood the protocol, but there seems to be a lot of "junk" in that vitamin C tablet. Won't be harmful, or shouldn't be, but next time see if you can find an ascorbic acid tablet which is as clean as the lysine tablet you mentioned.

The trick taking CoQ10 is to take it with fats, say cheese. You need bile for CoQ10 to be absorbed.

Won't hurt to add vitamin K - mgs of K1, or micrograms of K2, as this will greatly assist the process of reversing hard calcified plaques.

Ditto good natural Omega 3/6s. Reminds that one reason these are so important has to do with cell membrane permeability to sugar/vitamin C. So make sure he is not taking ANY unnatural fats, e.g. foods that contain trans fats. He should also try to reduce his sugar intake, especially around the times he takes the vitamin C. Remember, high glycemic carbohydrates rapidly break down into sugars. He should focus on eating proteins, natural fats and low glycemic-index carbohydrates.

Makes sense to take the CoQ10, Omega Oils and vitamin K at the same time, with a meal containing fats.

Finally, can you find a chelated magnesium supplement? There are few nutrients outside of vitamin C that more important than magnesium for heart patients.



Thank you for the detailed response.

Unfortunately this is the only vitamin c supplement available here. I am planning on ordering some of the products offered at this site in the future but right now I just want him to get underway with the therapy asap.

For the other stuff can you tell me the specific amount of each he should start taking? namely:

Vitamin K1
Vitamin K2
Omega 3
Omega 6
Chelated magnesium( I have to look for it first)

I am going to start changing his dietry habbits as well.

Regards,
Zee


PS:
I just went to the chemist and got the following:

Vitamin k 100(GNC): vitamin k(as phytonadione) 100 mcg. dicalcium phosphate,cellulose
Omega-3(PULSE):vitamin E 1.2 mg, pure fish oil 0.5 g, omega-3 0.13 g of which EPA is 0.10 g.
Magnesium 250(GNC): Magnesium(as magnesium oxide and magnesium gluconate), cellulose, titanium dioxide, vegetable acetoglycerides.

Is the vitamin k supplement I got vitamin K1? and what do you think of the others?

Thanks
zee

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Re: Still Has Angina After Angioplasty/Stent - Pakistan

Post Number:#5  Post by ofonorow » Sat Aug 23, 2008 6:11 am

Well,

Checking with google, phytonadione is vitamin K1, and if so, then while micrograms is probably around the RDA, you would want at least 2 milligrams (and I believe the Life Extension Super-K product has 6 mg). LEF has an article we have linked to in the past where they claim that 40 mg is given in Japan as a treatment for osteoporosis.

What you have for K1 thus would be around the right amount of a good Vitamin K2.

I don't claim to be an expert in either Omega 3/6 or magnesium dosing. What I know is that there is an amount of magnesium will make people light headed and pass out from "low blood pressure." That amount may be as low as 3000 mg. I think the minimum is probably around 300 mg, depending on the form, daily. A good rule of thumb is to take the same amount of magnesium as calcium, however, we generally don't recommend supplementing calcium without cause. So 150 mg to 1000 mg magnesium in divided dosages is probably a safe range.

I've read the Barry Sears "Omega-Zone" books, and you might google him to see how much he recommends daily, although he prefers "pharamceutical" grade fish oils so that the amounts he recommends do not contain toxins from fish oils.
Owen R. Fonorow
HeartCURE.Info
American Scientist's Invention Could Prevent 350,000 Heart Bypass Operations a year

zeeeeeee

Re: Still Has Angina After Angioplasty/Stent - Pakistan

Post Number:#6  Post by zeeeeeee » Sun Aug 31, 2008 8:02 am

ofonorow wrote:Well,

Checking with google, phytonadione is vitamin K1, and if so, then while micrograms is probably around the RDA, you would want at least 2 milligrams (and I believe the Life Extension Super-K product has 6 mg). LEF has an article we have linked to in the past where they claim that 40 mg is given in Japan as a treatment for osteoporosis.

What you have for K1 thus would be around the right amount of a good Vitamin K2.

I don't claim to be an expert in either Omega 3/6 or magnesium dosing. What I know is that there is an amount of magnesium will make people light headed and pass out from "low blood pressure." That amount may be as low as 3000 mg. I think the minimum is probably around 300 mg, depending on the form, daily. A good rule of thumb is to take the same amount of magnesium as calcium, however, we generally don't recommend supplementing calcium without cause. So 150 mg to 1000 mg magnesium in divided dosages is probably a safe range.

I've read the Barry Sears "Omega-Zone" books, and you might google him to see how much he recommends daily, although he prefers "pharamceutical" grade fish oils so that the amounts he recommends do not contain toxins from fish oils.



Hey owen!

I have looked around for vitamin k2 but haven't been able to find it here in Pakistan, unfortunately. Plus, I couldn't find a clear cut recommendation for fish oils.

However, I want my father to start taking what he can. For now he'll be taking the following:

vitamin c:8 grams( he's still upping the dosage to see his tolerance)
L-lysin: 3 grams( he'll go upto 5g)
manesium:250 mg, btw its not chelated, i hope that is fine?
vitamin k1:2 mg, this would be 20 capsules as each one is 100 mcg
fish oils: 2 grams, the product is 'Pure' from sseas. I couldnt find if its mercury free or not.

What do you think? does it seem resonable along with the existing drugs he is taking? He'll continue to take the drug till he reaches his vitamin c tolerance.

Btw in chapter 7 of your book, it is stated to not take vitamin K with blood thinners. I dont know which of the medication he's taking is for blood thinning. Can you advise on this?

Thanks

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Re: Still Has Angina After Angioplasty/Stent - Pakistan

Post Number:#7  Post by ofonorow » Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:35 am

CoQ10? Otherwise list looks good. Try to increase C to compensate for toxicity of the drugs. Blood thinners in USA are Heparin, Warfarin/Coumadin. He should know if he is on a blood thinner, they would tell him to avoid vitamin K because these drugs work by blocking vitamin K, which makes them so dangerous.
Owen R. Fonorow
HeartCURE.Info
American Scientist's Invention Could Prevent 350,000 Heart Bypass Operations a year

zeeeeeee

Re: Still Has Angina After Angioplasty/Stent - Pakistan

Post Number:#8  Post by zeeeeeee » Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:21 am

ofonorow wrote:CoQ10? Otherwise list looks good. Try to increase C to compensate for toxicity of the drugs. Blood thinners in USA are Heparin, Warfarin/Coumadin. He should know if he is on a blood thinner, they would tell him to avoid vitamin K because these drugs work by blocking vitamin K, which makes them so dangerous.


o yes! I forgot CoQ10. He is taking it.

Btw I am a muslim and our month of fasting has started. We'll be fasting for 14 hours/day for the entire next month. We have absolutely nothing during our fast, not even water. So, my question is should my father keep the fasts? if they will be really bad for him at this stage he won't keep them. Let me know.

Thanks

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Re: Still Has Angina After Angioplasty/Stent - Pakistan

Post Number:#9  Post by ofonorow » Tue Sep 02, 2008 5:52 am

Fasting can be healthy, and I infer there are times he can continue his vitamins each day, right? If so, give about half the total daily dosage of vitamin C before the fast begins. (Before I knew about Dynamic Flow, I used to follow Linus Pauling's lead and take my 18,000 mg every 12 hours - that is, 9000 mg twice per day. Hopefully he can tolerate half his dosage at one time.)
Owen R. Fonorow
HeartCURE.Info
American Scientist's Invention Could Prevent 350,000 Heart Bypass Operations a year

zeeeeeee

Re: Still Has Angina After Angioplasty/Stent - Pakistan

Post Number:#10  Post by zeeeeeee » Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:55 am

Owen what about the rest of the stuff? should he split them in halves too?

Thanks

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Re: Still Has Angina After Angioplasty/Stent - Pakistan

Post Number:#11  Post by ofonorow » Wed Sep 03, 2008 11:34 am

Probably. Seems like a good strategy.
Owen R. Fonorow
HeartCURE.Info
American Scientist's Invention Could Prevent 350,000 Heart Bypass Operations a year

zeeeeeee

Re: Still Has Angina After Angioplasty/Stent - Pakistan

Post Number:#12  Post by zeeeeeee » Tue Sep 09, 2008 11:15 pm

Hey Owen,
I see in chapter 7 of your book that you recommend taking vitamin K in the form of K1 or K2. Does this mean K1 and K2 have the same function? I'm asking because I could only find K1 in Pakistan. Will K1 alone work at softening hard arteries?

Thanks!

zeeeeeee

Re: Still Has Angina After Angioplasty/Stent - Pakistan

Post Number:#13  Post by zeeeeeee » Mon Sep 15, 2008 5:42 am

Hey,

Another issue which my father has is gastric problem. Especially when he eats late at night even if its very little. His stomach kind of balllons up and causes a lot of discomfort. This is also happening with him these days when he has his pre-fast meal.

Can this be related to his arteries condition? do you have any advice on this? I'll greatly appreciate it.

Btw, he is feeling a lot better these days. His angina is still there but his energy seems to have come back. He use to have very stiff hands when he got up in the morning but not he has got rid of it totally. I don't know what was causing it but its gone now! Thanks!

Regards!

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Re: Still Has Angina After Angioplasty/Stent - Pakistan

Post Number:#14  Post by ofonorow » Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:54 am

Btw, he is feeling a lot better these days. His angina is still there but his energy seems to have come back. He use to have very stiff hands when he got up in the morning but not he has got rid of it totally. I don't know what was causing it but its gone now! Thanks!


Sounds like you are being a good "doctor" for your father! Congratulations on practicing medicine without a license!

Tell us more about the Angina? When does it occur, has it diminished at all?

And the "gastric problem" is not defined well enough to know what it might be or how it is related. Many of these GERD-like problems are because of too little stomach acid, as well described in the Jonathan Wright/Lane Lenard book WHY STOMACH ACID IS GOOD FOR YOU.

Vitamin K has been discussed in depth at this forum, and I was hoping someone with more knowledge could answer your question. I just know that much more (order of magnitudes more) K1 is needed than k2 for the anti-calcium effect.
Owen R. Fonorow
HeartCURE.Info
American Scientist's Invention Could Prevent 350,000 Heart Bypass Operations a year

zeeeeeee

Re: Still Has Angina After Angioplasty/Stent - Pakistan

Post Number:#15  Post by zeeeeeee » Wed Sep 17, 2008 6:31 am

Talking to him in more detail he tells me that he is experiencing angina mostly after he has had a meal and is engaging in some kind physical activity eg walking. I was wondering that this could actually be normal. Even if I try to run or walk fast after a meal I experience a heavy chest. What do you say? However, the problem with him is that chest pain occurs after very little activity after a meal.

He says there is definite improvement! but I'd like to see him after ramadan when he is not fasting. This will show things in black and white.

With regard to his gastric problem, he just says that his tummy gets really tight even after very little food. Should I be getting any tests done to find out the underlying cause?

Regards!


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